Permit delays blamed for pervasive ‘pain and regulatory heartache’

from Grassroot Institute, November 20, 2024

Hawaii’s lengthy and confusing permitting process has been causing “pain and regulatory heartache” in Hawaii for decades, according to Grassroot Executive Vice President Joe Kent, speaking recently with radio host Johnny Miro on the H. Hawaii Media network of five stations on Oahu and five on Kauai.

However, Kent highlighted several proposals from Grassroot’s new report about permitting — “Seven low-cost ways to help speed up permitting in Hawaii” — that could help improve the situation, such as preapproved plans, exempting basic home repairs, grandfathering buildings without permits, and streamlining approvals for solar projects.

Kent noted the clear demand for permitting reform at two recent Grassroot seminars in Honolulu and Hilo. The events were sold out and standing room only, “and only in Hawaii would you ever have a big crowd who wanted to learn about permitting,” he said with a laugh.

The key takeaway from the events, Kent said, was the widespread desire for change, “not only of people who want to get their permits approved, but also the people who are approving the permits.” 

There were “a lot of government bureaucrats or former government bureaucrats who came to our events and they agreed … with our recommendations,” he said. “Everyone wants this.” 

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TRANSCRIPT:

11-17-24 Joe Kent interviewed by Johnny Miro on H. Hawaii Media radio network

Johnny Miro: All right, happy to have you along on this Sunday morning. It’s our Sunday morning public access programming on our five H. Hawaii Media Oahu radio stations and our five H. Hawaii Media radio stations on the island of Kauai. I’m Johnny Mero.

Once again, we’re going to be discussing an important topic for people, and it’ll center around housing and the ease with which to get your permits. 

Airight? Why is it so difficult? Have you ever had a problem with a building permit?

Permitting is one of Hawaii’s most consistent headaches. A new report, though, from Grassroot Institute of Hawaii is suggesting that there’s ways that state and county lawmakers can speed up the permitting approvals. 

And with me this morning to discuss that and bring forth his knowledge of this is Joe Kent, the Grassroot executive vice president. I wanted to discuss this. Good Sunday morning to Joe. Thanks for joining in.

Joe Kent: Good morning and thanks for having me.

Miro: Joe, why did Grassroot decide to write this report?

Kent: Well, we’ve been getting so many stories of people who follow us. They email us their stories of pain and regulatory heartache. And it just seemed that more and more of those stories led back to one department — the permitting department on all four of the counties.

You know, permitting is connected to so many problems in Hawaii, like housing and opening a business. If you need to remodel something, a lot of people have unpermitted structures in their backyard or something. This all affects the affordability of Hawaii and the cost of living. And so we wanted to address this.

I mean, Hawaii has among the slowest wait times for permitting in the nation. So we’re the worst state for permitting. It takes six months to a year, sometimes longer to get a permit. So this is top on our list of things to address.

Miro: OK, so what are the main causes of permitting delays in Hawaii, and, Joe, how do they impact housing availability and affordability? And I know you folks had some recommendations. You’ve been visiting the neighbor islands. But what are the main causes of these permitting delays here?

Kent: Well, a lot of it goes back to zoning and the multi-regulatory system that you have to get stamps and approvals from. Sometimes you need to go to this department and that department, and all of that is really confusing for people.

I remember trying to look up how to get a split-AC permit for a condominium, and I was on the department’s website for an hour just clicking around trying to find just how do you even get started. And I’m used to navigating government websites. So if I can’t do it, how is the average person going to do it? So there’s just a lot of bureaucratic morass that’s built up. 

But also there are some policies that make it slower too and that’s what we wanted to address with our report — small tweaks and actually big tweaks, seven big tweaks basically, to make permitting faster.

Miro: So you mentioned bureaucratic morass, so in your opinion, a bureaucratic culture is pretty much contributing to the complexity and delays to this permitting process?

Kent: Well, that’s part of it, is the culture. But from the bureaucrats’ perspective, they have to follow the law. So, if you talk to people who run the departments, they want the permitting to go faster, but they have to follow the law exactly. 

If someone submitted their permit incorrectly, if there’s a gray area somewhere, if something wasn’t filled out, it all has to go back to the customer and the user. And so even permitting departments themselves, I would say, are frustrated at the slowness.

Miro: Before we get to some of the recommendations Grassroot made, the technology — we heard stories about that the DPP, the outdated technology, the understaffing in the building departments — is that worse than the permitting delays?

Kent: Well, technology is a double-edged sword. A lot of people say that technology can be our savior. If we only upgrade the computers, then that’s going to speed everything up. But sometimes it slows things down.

I know on the Big Island, they implemented the EPIC system, which is a computer system to put all of the permits online so everyone could see them. But actually that ended up, the implementation of that, slowed the permits for months. 

The fundamental difference is that computers can only see things in zeros and ones. It’s either yes or no, but humans can have a little bit of flexibility and sometimes that actually makes it quicker. So it’s a double-edged sword.

Miro: Joe Kent, Grassroot executive vice president, joining me to discuss ways to speed up the permitting process. So what were some of the Grassroot recommendations that it made at some recent events that they hosted?

Kent: Well, the first one is preapproved plans. You should be able to just walk into the permitting office and take a permit plan off the shelf and build your home very easily. It’s already approved. It’s preapproved.

And actually, Hawai‘ii County is the leader in this. They already have this and they’re expanding it to multifamily homes as well. They have it for single-family homes. And there are a lot of people who are praising this when we went to Hawai‘i County because it’s just so simple and easy and quick. Now if one county did it, why not the rest of them? It seems very simple.

Another one is exempting basic home repairs or business repairs. Right now all counties have this where they say, “if you’re trying to replace something or repair something that’s a small cost — let’s say it’s $1,000 or something — you can get it permitted or it’s exempt from needing a permit.” So that’s a good thing.

But the cap is too low. The cap is $7,000 on some counties, $15,000 on other counties. I think the Big Island is wanting to make it $25,000, which would be great. I mean, the higher the better, because the more permits we can exempt, the quicker this is going to go. The permits should be really addressing the big things, not these little home repairs like countertops. 

Or even business owners, if they want to open a business, sometimes that get slowed down by just trying to upgrade the internals of the building.

Miro: So when you mention the $7,000 Joe, and you mention the $25,000, that’s on the cost of the remodeling project?

Kent: Right. So if something was to be remodeled in your home that’s less than $25,000, then you could do that without a permit. That’s what the exemption speaks to. And the easier we make that for people, then the easier we’re going to get through the permitting department.

Also, SolarAPP Plus, this is a process that they use on the mainland to permit solar applications in a day. In Hawaii, it takes months to permit solar. And if you look at all of the permits, most of them or many of them are solar. 

The bulk of all of the permits caught up in the queue at the permitting departments across the counties are PV solar voltaic related. So if we could make that faster, that could not only quicken solar, but it would clear out the backlog for everyone else too. 

There was actually a bill to do this last year — or this year, excuse me — but it died at the state Legislature. But some people are talking about doing it again, and maybe we just need to educate lawmakers a little more about how this could quicken the process.

Another one is grandfathering. How many people do I know that have an unpermitted structure somewhere in their house or in the backyard? Maybe it’s a little shed or a shack or maybe it’s like a portion of the house that’s not permitted. 

So what does the person have to do?. They have to go through a process to try to get it permitted, and that can cost double or triple what it normally costs.But we should be making it easier to get these things permitted, not harder. 

In other states they’ve had amnesty programs to make it easier — all you need is a simple inspection. If it passes an inspector, then it’s permitted, type of thing. 

So that’s just a few of the ways and you can find more about our reports at grassrootsinstitute.org.

Miro: All right, Joe, any takeaways that you can relate [about] to the audience after you hosted a couple of events? Grassroot did about the report — what were the takeaways from those as you hosted a couple of events recently?

Kent: So we talked in Honolulu and on the Big Island, and the biggest takeaway for me was that people actually wanted to go to a permitting event. [laughs] It was a sold-out crowd. It was standing room only. And only in Hawaii would you ever have a big crowd who wanted to learn about permitting.

And there were a lot of government bureaucrats or former government bureaucrats who came to our events and they agreed with us with our recommendations. Many of them were like, “Yeah, this makes sense. We would love to implement this. All we need is a law change.”

For example, one former bureaucrat said that he tried to get private contracting where you could have the permitting department just hire a private company to clear out the backlog. And then when the backlog is cleared, then the private company goes away and the civil service workers remain. And that would be a really simple way to do it, but it turns out politically it’s really difficult because of Hawaii’s crazy regulations.

The big takeaway for me is, there is a lot of response and want for this not only of people who want to get their permits approved but also the people who are approving the permits. Everyone wants this. 

Miro: How about some stories from some of the people who attended? Some personal stories that they relayed to you?

Kent: Well, there were a lot of stories about business owners who had delays, and for a business, those delays cost money. Time is money. And so we’ve heard, there was one business story where it was two months delayed and cost the business $10,000 because they couldn’t generate power to run their business.

Another lady was trying to open up a sort of a postal delivery business and it was taking months and months and months to get a permit. 

On the Big Island a lot of people talked about the need to get unpermitted structures permitted. The Big Island is big — there’s a lot of land out there and there’s a lot of unpermitted structures. So there’s a need for that.

And you know, I’ve heard this many times, too, where a restaurant owner will try to get a permit and it takes sometimes years to do this. There was one restaurant owner I heard of who went to the permitting office and was running up and down the halls yelling for help because he needed someone to address his permit, otherwise he was at the breaking point of taking a huge loss on the business. He’d waited over a year.

So permitting is personal. One major theme was that all of these people were terrified about speaking out because they didn’t want any problems with their permit, lest the department might retaliate somehow because they told their story. 

So there’s a culture of fear around this permitting issue and people were thankful that we were saying something because, well, we don’t need a permit, so it’s easier for us to speak out. [laughs]

Miro: So it’s unfortunate that people would be holding back for fear of retaliation for speaking out, but you heard it firsthand. 

Joe Kent, the executive vice president of Grassroot Institute of Hawaii — grassrootinstitute.org for more on this. 

Their president, Grassroot President Keali’i Akina, a few weeks ago, I read this, he wrote about a story from the Big Island where someone was being told to tear down their structure, and that was because of an invalid permit. Can you explain what happened there?

Kent: Yeah, I talked to Shahzaad Ausman on the Big Island. He’s a small business owner who moved to a small home near Captain Cook on the Big Island, and he wanted to move his family there. He came from the island of Mauritius, and he told me that Mauritius is just like Hawaii — the climate, everything just reminded him of home. So that’s why he wanted to move here.

The home he bought needed some upgrades. And so he started upgrading the home, getting permits for that. But one day he got a call from the permitting office, and they told him his permit was expired. It was expired the previous day.

And apparently was because they have this new computer system, like I alluded to before, called EPIC, that canceled the original permit on the house from the 1980s.

I guess the system, the permit was in some sort of gray area where it might not have gotten a final inspection at the time, or if it did, it wasn’t recorded anywhere. You know, this is back in the 1980s. And because of that, the computer robotically just cancelled it. And the permitting office said, “But don’t worry, you know, all you have to do is just tear down the house and build it again.”

[laughter]

But Shazad said it’s impossible to do that because since the 1980s the zoning laws have changed such that it’s much more difficult to get a structure like that permitted in the location, which is, you know, near the shoreline. So for Shazad, he’s just stuck. He hired a lawyer and he’s pursuing this as a case.

But it’s not just Shazad though. There are thousands of other people on the Big Island who are in this position as well who aren’t speaking out, who haven’t hired a lawyer and who are watching Shazad’s case, hoping that it somehow helps their case too. So this is a big problem.

Miro: Joe, has he said that it’s taking long for that process to move forward or is it moving at a pretty good pace? Did he mention that?

Kent: No, it’s taking long. I mean, already this has taken at least six months. He went to the Board of Appeals on the Big Island. The Board of Appeals, I believe, agreed with the computer. So yeah, it’s just taking a long time now.

And this problem is likely going to happen on other islands that have instituted computer systems like EPIC. On Maui they have the MAPS system. In Honolulu they have their own computer system. And some of the bureaucrats have told me that this is not a problem with EPIC, this is a problem with computers, so we may see more of this.

Miro: Wow. Amazing and the DPP was just in the news all of last year upgrading their system. So what are we using over here?

Kent: Well, we’re using a system — I don’t remember the name of it — but, you know, these systems have an upside of being able to see everything. I can see every single permit in the system. I can see where the problems are, where it’s stuck. I can see what kind of permit it is. And so we’re able to get all kinds of data on this That’s how we’re able to say the permits are taking six months to a year and so on.

But anyways, we’ll have to watch this closely to see if they find some resolution on the Big Island that hopefully can work for the other islands too.

Miro: It sounds like you’ve got a really good response obviously by the attendance and then at the recent events and people just going to grassrootinstitute.org to read it. Is there any hope, Joe, of any of these recommendations being adopted by the state or by the counties?

Kent: Yeah. There’s a lot of traction right now in permitting. The departments, the politicians are looking at this. Their constituents are obviously squawking about this. And there’s a need to reform permits because we’re trying to build housing. This is one of the biggest roadblocks to that.

Last year at the Hawaii State Legislature there was an accessory dwelling unit bill that passed that allows more ADUs in people’s backyards. But we’re going to need permitting reform for that to happen. 

The Big Island actually saw that and addressed it by passing Bill 123 and that helped, but all of the counties need to do that to quicken the permitting process for ADUs.

So there’s going to be challenges ahead, but at least we’re hearing a lot of people talk about it. And the department in Honolulu actually responded to our event saying that they are either in the process of implementing or have implemented many of the things that we’re talking about in our report. But I think the question is the magnitude.

One solution in our report, or policy option in our report, is to have a shot clock for example. You put a shot clock on it — if it takes too long then the permit’s automatically approved. But in Honolulu the shot clocks are easy to reset. All you do is hit the reset button and the shot clock goes to zero again. So we need to make our shot clocks a little harder to reset.

Miro: What are you looking at right now for a shot clock neighbor islands? Is that three month, six month, one year?

Kent: Yeah, I think the shot clocks are around a month or so on the neighbor islands — it depends on the project. I know in Lahaina, for example, they have a shot clock that’s less than a month. But in Lahaina, it’s taking longer than a month for each of these things now. 

So the shot clocks are all kind of like a guide, I guess, but they should have more teeth, I think.

Miro: And with these permits, there’s obviously a cost to it. Is there a difference in the fees that are applied? Wouldn’t there be a positive effect as far as reducing the building permit fees for the overall construction costs and housing affordability within the state?

Kent: Well, yeah. When it comes to fees, permitting fees have gone up faster than the rate of inflation, over time. So we’re actually paying more and more for permitting fees, and so the departments should have plenty of money to do their work.

But that’s actually a good suggestion, that we should reduce some of these fees. I mean, t\This is thousands and thousands of dollars that people have to pay, and like I said before, if they’re trying to get something that was unpermitted permitted, sometimes the fees are double or triple. 

So yeah, counties should really look at reducing those fees if they want more people to get through.

Miro: And what do you think, Joe, which types of construction projects would benefit most from the proposed policy reforms you’re recommending? Are there many in your mind?

Kent: Well, that’s the great thing, that these reforms don’t just affect one sector. It’s just the whole thing, from healthcare to businesses to nonprofits or housing especially. This is huge.

Look at, for example, our energy goals in Hawaii. Now, whatever you think of those energy goals, permitting is a big barrier to them. And so if people want to get solar, then we need to make that quicker for them and less expensive. So yeah, this I think is the one issue that affects them all.

Miro: Executive vice president Joe Kent of Grassroot Institute of Hawaii, anything else you’d like to share with the listeners Joe as we get set to wrap things up?

Kent: Yes, I think it’s really important to tell stories about permitting. If people who are listening have stories about their struggles, or maybe their ease in getting through the permitting process, we’d really love to know them, and you can share those stories with us at grassrootinstitute.org. Just click on “Contact us.”

Miro: All right, great job, Joe, and look forward to another discussion about a very important topic here within this state, and until then enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

Kent: OK, great. Thank you so much.